Message: 2 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:19:33 +0000 (GMT) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > > > On 12/11/2005 at 4:54 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > > >> > >Eelco Huininga wrote: >>> > >> Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 >>> > >> and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? > > > > On a slight tangent--is there really anything else required for > > medium-speed HPIB support other than a bidirectional 8-bit port with a few > > handshaking lines? It seems to me that th Victor 9000 advertised IEEE-488 >From waht I rememebr you can do almost all the IEEE-488 stuff purely in software (the handshake is interlocked, in that something is changed by one device. then the other device changes some other line, then the first device can change a line, etc. THere's no chance of missing anything). I did say 'almost all' -- IIRC there's one thing you can't do like that, you need to do it in hardware. But it only takes a couple of gates. Commodoe, and even HP, did do the HPIB interface in software in some of their machines. For example the HP82169 HPIL - HPIB interface contains a custom HPIB buffer chip, but it is just a buffer. The actual logic is handled by the microcontroller (8049 IIRC). > > capability with little more than a "dumb" parallel port. IIRC, (and I don't haev the schematic in front of me) the Sirius (Victor 9000) used a 6522 with some propper HPIB buffers (75160, etc). This was used for the Centronics parallel port, but with the right cable and software it could be used as an IEEE-488 port. Alas I've never seen the 'right software' -tony ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:07:43 +0000 (GMT) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > > > Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 > > and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? It seems like > > almost nothing has survived... There was an article in the UK magazine 'Electronics and Wireless World' in 1984 (I think) which included a schematic of the BBC IEEE-488 interface. I can find more details if anyone's interested (I know I have said article, I also have one of the interfaces). -tony ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:35:51 +0000 (GMT) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > I've also got the schematic for the Acorn System IEEE488 card somewhere - it > > wouldn't surprise me if the BBC unit is based heavily on this (I don't think I It might be, it might not. The 'Acorn' IEEE-488 interface for the Beeb doesn't seem to be an Acorn design. The article to find is in 'Electronics and Wireless World' February 1984, pages 24-26 ('IEEE488 interface for the BBC Microcomputer'). It imples the interface was actually designed by a company called 'Intellegent Interfaces'. Anyway, there is a schematic. It's based round a 9914 chip along with the 75160 and 75162 buffers. There's a 5MHz clock circuit, an address decoder, a data bus buffer, and the normal circuit to de-glitch the page select line on the 1MHz bus. That's all. Nothing remotely odd. Link S1 selects system controller mode, link S2 selects active pull-ups on the IEEE488 data lines. The other useful thing in this article is an example program using the IEEEFS filesystem ROM, and a list of the commands you can use with the interface. It appears you open a 'file' called "COMMAND" and another called "DATA", you write command strings to the first one and use the second one to actually transfer data on the bus. Addressing looks totally strange, you seem to open a file with a name correspodning to the device address in decimal and then use the file handle of _that_ file in subsequent comamnds. Hmmm... > > I've also got a complete unit in the cupboard (but no BBC-side ROM to go with it) > > > > I *think* Tony Duell (on this list) has one too. Other than that, those are I do. I think I might also have the IEEEFS ROM that goes with it, but I can't promise that. You;'ve just made me worried. I am going to have to try to find my unit to see if it agrees with the circuit in Wireless World. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:20:17 +0000 (GMT) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > You;'ve just made me worried. I am going to have to try to find my unit > > to see if it agrees with the circuit in Wireless World. I needn't have worried... I have found my 'Acron' IEEE-488 interface. It's the normal 'cheese wedge' case, but the intenral layout is not what you might expect. There is no PSU at the front as in the second processors, instead there's a metal plate screwed there. There's a PCB down the left side of the bottom (it looks to be approximately extended-length single-height Eurocard dimensions). There's a mains transformer screwed to the bottom of the case alongside it, with the normal switch and fuse on the back. I have not compared the circuit in detail to the E&WW article. But the IC numbers all agree, and from what I can see the circuit does too. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 14:22:38 -0700 From: woodelf Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <439C989E.60701@jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Jules Richardson wrote: > > From your description, the one that I have certainly does - 9914 IC, > > 5MHz clock, 75160 and 75162 buffers. > > > > I *think* we've got a stack of Electronics and Wireless World issues, > > so I'll have to look for the article... > > and keep a good look out for the home built computers. You can't get them on this side of the pond. I quit subcribing to them when they wanted payment in US $ for outside the UK. I live in Canada, no way I will pay a double exchange rate. > > cheers ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:39:53 +0000 (GMT) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain >> > > I have found my 'Acron' IEEE-488 interface. It's the normal 'cheese >> > > wedge' case, but the intenral layout is not what you might expect. There >> > > is no PSU at the front as in the second processors, instead there's a >> > > metal plate screwed there. > > > > Yes, I almost mentioned that, but I think I've seen it in one of the other > > cheese wedge boxes too. Might have been the Econet bridge, or possibly the > > Prestel adapter... It's not the Econet bridge (or at least not in _my_ Econet bridge), that has the normal PSU (I forget if it's a linear or switch-mode one) across the front of the case. I've never seen the Pretzel (oops, Prestel) modem. I've got a scheamtic for it somwewhere, but that doesn't, IIRC, show the PSU. One day, I guess, I'll find one (although old Acorn kit does go for high prices on E-overpay...) -tony ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:43:10 +0000 (GMT) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain >> > > I *think* we've got a stack of Electronics and Wireless World issues, >> > > so I'll have to look for the article... >> > > > > and keep a good look out for the home built computers. I have most of the issues from the time when homebrewing computers was a major topic... Alas most of the articles are incomplete. They don't give PCB layouts (no big problem) or ROM dumps (very big problem). In a lot of cases you had to contact the author for a programmed EPROM, and that is not likely to be possible some 20-odd years later. The same, alas, applies to many other magazine projects, though. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 17:05:42 +0100 From: Eelco Huininga Subject: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: cctech@classiccmp.org Message-ID: <439C4E56.6020600@huininga.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? It seems like almost nothing has survived... Cheers, Eelco ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 16:54:52 +0000 From: Jules Richardson Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <439C59DC.9050608@yahoo.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Eelco Huininga wrote: > > Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 > > and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? Amazingly, I've got the "IEEE488 interface user guide" for the BBC micro. I remember your message on the BBC list about this, and had a *really* vague recollection at the time of seeing something to do with the unit a while back amongst piles of other stuff. I had absolutely no idea where it'd be though - assuming I hadn't imagined it anyway (and that it was even something useful). Then I went and spotted the darn thing on top of a pile of to-be-sorted Acorn stuff about an hour ago - so good timing on a second posting here! It's 86 pages including covers, but it is A5 size, so I could try and scan it at two pages per scan on my A4 scanner sometime - not sure if I'll get chance this side of Christmas, although I can try.... Oh, I probably already have a scan of the Acorn advertising for the unit too (it'll just be an A4 page), although I'm surprised that's not already out there in electronic form. I've also got the schematic for the Acorn System IEEE488 card somewhere - it wouldn't surprise me if the BBC unit is based heavily on this (I don't think I have the actual BBC version's schematics though, although I'll check) > It seems like almost nothing has survived... I don't think they were widely used. I suppose the BBC micro came with enough expansion options that most people had no need for it. Cambridge university still had one as of last year, but I'm not sure what's happened to it since or if there was any software with it (almost certainly not; hardware from there seems to usually get thrown out separately to software / manuals). This was heard via someone else, so I'm not even sure who the contact there was. Kent uni almost certainly used to have one too, as that's where my Teletext adapter came from - with an IEEE488 box lid! I've also got a complete unit in the cupboard (but no BBC-side ROM to go with it) I *think* Tony Duell (on this list) has one too. Other than that, those are the only four (well, three and a lid) I've ever heard of. cheers Jules ------------------------------ Message: 31 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 09:24:02 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: <200512110924020848.1350910B@10.0.0.252> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" On 12/11/2005 at 4:54 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > >Eelco Huininga wrote: >> >> Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 >> >> and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? On a slight tangent--is there really anything else required for medium-speed HPIB support other than a bidirectional 8-bit port with a few handshaking lines? It seems to me that th Victor 9000 advertised IEEE-488 capability with little more than a "dumb" parallel port. Cheers, Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 1 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 21:13:29 +0000 From: Jules Richardson Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <439C9679.2050907@yahoo.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I've also got the schematic for the Acorn System IEEE488 card somewhere - it >> >> wouldn't surprise me if the BBC unit is based heavily on this (I don't think I > > > > It might be, it might not. The 'Acorn' IEEE-488 interface for the Beeb > > doesn't seem to be an Acorn design. > > > > The article to find is in 'Electronics and Wireless World' February 1984, > > pages 24-26 ('IEEE488 interface for the BBC Microcomputer'). It imples > > the interface was actually designed by a company called 'Intellegent > > Interfaces'. Aha. I've dug my unit out - on the back it says "Made in Britain for Acorn Computers" - rather than "by Acorn". There's no manufacturer's name written inside - but there is an "II" beside the Acorn part number on the PCB. > > The other useful thing in this article is an example program using the > > IEEEFS filesystem ROM, and a list of the commands you can use with the > > interface. It appears you open a 'file' called "COMMAND" and another > > called "DATA", you write command strings to the first one and use the > > second one to actually transfer data on the bus. Addressing looks totally > > strange, you seem to open a file with a name correspodning to the device > > address in decimal and then use the file handle of _that_ file in > > subsequent comamnds. Hmmm... Hmm, I see what you mean. The manual looks very comprehensive with lots of examples - but I can't see where it justifies why the addressing is done in this way. >> >> I *think* Tony Duell (on this list) has one too. Other than that, those are > > > > I do. I think I might also have the IEEEFS ROM that goes with it, but I > > can't promise that. I certainly don't have one... > > You;'ve just made me worried. I am going to have to try to find my unit > > to see if it agrees with the circuit in Wireless World. From your description, the one that I have certainly does - 9914 IC, 5MHz clock, 75160 and 75162 buffers. I *think* we've got a stack of Electronics and Wireless World issues, so I'll have to look for the article... cheers Jules ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:08:40 +0000 From: Jules Richardson Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <439CA368.9020503@yahoo.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Tony Duell wrote: >> >> You;'ve just made me worried. I am going to have to try to find my unit >> >> to see if it agrees with the circuit in Wireless World. > > > > I needn't have worried... > > > > I have found my 'Acron' IEEE-488 interface. It's the normal 'cheese > > wedge' case, but the intenral layout is not what you might expect. There > > is no PSU at the front as in the second processors, instead there's a > > metal plate screwed there. Yes, I almost mentioned that, but I think I've seen it in one of the other cheese wedge boxes too. Might have been the Econet bridge, or possibly the Prestel adapter... cheers J. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 23:43:57 +0000 (GMT) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain >> > > The article to find is in 'Electronics and Wireless World' February 1984, >> > > pages 24-26 ('IEEE488 interface for the BBC Microcomputer'). It imples >> > > the interface was actually designed by a company called 'Intellegent >> > > Interfaces'. > > > > Indeed it is. I ran the IEEEFS ROMs which are available at the 'The BBC > > lives' site through a disassembler and both ROMs have a copyright > > message saying '(C) Intelligent Interfaces Ltd and Acorn Ltd'. > > Could you scan the article? I'd be very interested in it! Now where am I going to find a repairable scanner and something to connect it to? >> > > I do. I think I might also have the IEEEFS ROM that goes with it, but I >> > > can't promise that. > > I wonder what version you've got. The 0.2 ROM seems like a beta version, > > with lots of 'unused code' in between the different subroutines, and the > > 0.5 ROM hasn't got any filesystem support, just support for the OSWORD > > calls. I will try to find it. It will take some time, though.... > > > > [snip] > > >> > > Hmm, I see what you mean. The manual looks very comprehensive with lots of >> > > examples - but I can't see where it justifies why the addressing is done in >> > > this way. > > > > I think it was done so the IEEE interface could be accessed as an > > ordinary file system (file handles &F0-&FF were reserved for IEEEFS IIRC). Yes, but why not do a modified version of the HP method (at least on older machines). Have a file called 'DATA' that talks to the currently addressed talker/listener. And send the appropriate commands to the 'COMMAND' file to address devices. I think that would have been a lot clearer. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:52:49 -0500 From: joseph c lang Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Message-ID: <05121217524900.28596@bell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" On Sunday 11 December 2005 12:24, you wrote: > > On 12/11/2005 at 4:54 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >> > >Eelco Huininga wrote: >>> > >> Does anyone have any documentation or software (other than IEEEFS 0.5 >>> > >> and NIEEE 0.2) for Acorn's IEEE488 interface for the beeb? > > > > On a slight tangent--is there really anything else required for > > medium-speed HPIB support other than a bidirectional 8-bit port with a few > > handshaking lines? It seems to me that th Victor 9000 advertised IEEE-488 > > capability with little more than a "dumb" parallel port. > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck If your goal is to be a controller in a single controller system,you can do IEEE-488 with only i/o ports and proper drivers (75160/75161/75162) If you are trying to make a target device you need hardware help. The required time to get off the bus when ATN is asserted is far too short to do in software. Just a couple of gates will do. All you need do is detect the assertion of ATN ,disable the drivers and force not ready for data. The CPU can take its time setting outputs to the correct state before re enabling the drivers NRFD will hold off the controller. I know a lot of systems that implement IEEE-488 controller with nothing more than PIAs and drivers. joe lang ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 20:38:13 +0100 From: Eelco Huininga Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: cctech@classiccmp.org Message-ID: <439DD1A5.60005@huininga.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Message: 5 > > Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 19:35:51 +0000 (GMT) > > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface > > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain > > > > >> >>I've also got the schematic for the Acorn System IEEE488 card somewhere - it >> >>wouldn't surprise me if the BBC unit is based heavily on this (I don't think I > > > > > > It might be, it might not. The 'Acorn' IEEE-488 interface for the Beeb > > doesn't seem to be an Acorn design. > > > > The article to find is in 'Electronics and Wireless World' February 1984, > > pages 24-26 ('IEEE488 interface for the BBC Microcomputer'). It imples > > the interface was actually designed by a company called 'Intellegent > > Interfaces'. Indeed it is. I ran the IEEEFS ROMs which are available at the 'The BBC lives' site through a disassembler and both ROMs have a copyright message saying '(C) Intelligent Interfaces Ltd and Acorn Ltd'. Could you scan the article? I'd be very interested in it! > > Anyway, there is a schematic. It's based round a 9914 chip along with the > > 75160 and 75162 buffers. There's a 5MHz clock circuit, an address > > decoder, a data bus buffer, and the normal circuit to de-glitch the page > > select line on the 1MHz bus. That's all. Nothing remotely odd. > > > > Link S1 selects system controller mode, link S2 selects active pull-ups > > on the IEEE488 data lines. I've just finished reverse-engineering the board and it's indeed a very straight-forward design. [snip] > > I do. I think I might also have the IEEEFS ROM that goes with it, but I > > can't promise that. I wonder what version you've got. The 0.2 ROM seems like a beta version, with lots of 'unused code' in between the different subroutines, and the 0.5 ROM hasn't got any filesystem support, just support for the OSWORD calls. [snip] > > Hmm, I see what you mean. The manual looks very comprehensive with lots of > > examples - but I can't see where it justifies why the addressing is done in > > this way. I think it was done so the IEEE interface could be accessed as an ordinary file system (file handles &F0-&FF were reserved for IEEEFS IIRC). Cheers, Eelco ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 00:25:22 +0000 (GMT) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > The interface was supplied with an IEEE filing system (IEEEFS), in ROM. > > Subsequently, the new firmware (NIEEE), provided in a sideways ROM, was > > written to enable the interface to be used with the National Semiconductors > > 32000 series processor based Cambridge Coprocessor and Workstation but could Now why do I suddently want this, and where the heck do I find it? I do know the ROM I got with my IEEE-488 interface is IEEEFS, alas. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:05:46 +0000 From: Jules Richardson Subject: Re: Acorn IEEE488 interface To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <439F37AA.40703@yahoo.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Tony Duell wrote: >> >> You;'ve just made me worried. I am going to have to try to find my unit >> >> to see if it agrees with the circuit in Wireless World. > > > > I needn't have worried... > > > > I have found my 'Acron' IEEE-488 interface. Tony et al, FYI - the following was posted to comp.sys.acorn.hardware earlier on from Andrew Ray of Intelligent Interfaces in response to Eelco's post there: <<< In the early 1980s Intelligent Interfaces designed, developed, manufactured and supported the Acorn IEEE488 Interface for the BBC Microcomputer. It was based on the Texas TMS9914 IC to provide the talker, listener and controller functions. All interfaces supplied by Acorn were housed in a modified (by Intelligent Interfaces) version of the plastic case originally used for the Teletext Adapter. There was never an Acorn-designed IEEE488 Interface for the BBC Microcomputer. Intelligent Interfaces never supplied the interface in a different case before supplying it to Acorn. However, after a number of years, when Acorn discontinued it as a product, Intelligent Interfaces supplied the interface direct to customers in a customized standard metal case. I do not think that the software for any of the third party, Watford, Procyon, etc IEEE488 Interfaces for the BBC Microcomputer was compatible with the Acorn interface because they used different contoller ICs. I remember that Acorn advertised an IEEE488 Interface for the Series I, II, III and IV systems based on the Motorola MC684448P which only provided the talker and listener functions. However, while designing and developing the Acorn IEEE488 Interface I was never shown one. The interface was supplied with an IEEE filing system (IEEEFS), in ROM. Subsequently, the new firmware (NIEEE), provided in a sideways ROM, was written to enable the interface to be used with the National Semiconductors 32000 series processor based Cambridge Coprocessor and Workstation but could also be used with other coprocessors and standalone BBC Microcomputers. It gave much higher data transfer rates, making it ideal for use with digital storage oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzers etc. >>> copied here for the benefit of any interested people who don't read c.s.a.h. cheers Jules ------------------------------